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Science & The Supernatural: A Discussion of the World Around us - Based on Science with an Interest in the Supernatural ...
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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 13:31 
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nygreenguy wrote:
sidhe wrote:
I also willingly admit that it's irrational and their actual existence has no bearing on my belief or practice.


Thats a conversation killer.


Not really ... It brings out a neat point ...

Sidhe: Do the gods/goddesses work into your rituals? Does their (possible) existence give a framework for the rituals you like, or help to fill in blanks in your worldview?

Getting into this might be part of what nygreenguy's after ...

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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 14:09 
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Hex wrote:
nygreenguy wrote:
sidhe wrote:
I also willingly admit that it's irrational and their actual existence has no bearing on my belief or practice.


Thats a conversation killer.


Not really ... It brings out a neat point ...

Sidhe: Do the gods/goddesses work into your rituals? Does their (possible) existence give a framework for the rituals you like, or help to fill in blanks in your worldview?

Getting into this might be part of what nygreenguy's after ...


Oh, of course. I'm a cold-weather creature. Seriously, temperatures over 67*F send me into paroxysms of bitching. Accordingly, as I work within the Celtic pantheon, I basically use the whole "Dark Half" of the year concept as a way to celebrate the weather cooling off. Similarly, I've always been comfortable with the idea of death, and so feel close to the Morrigan.

And, well, I like to drink and fuck...so Meadb is well-loved by me.

It's a framework for understanding things, and it gives reason to the reasonless. Why do people die? Because they must either pass through Cerridwen's cauldron into a new life, or they've been rewarded with eternal youth in Tir Na Og among the Tuatha de Danaan. Either way, there's no reason to mourn. Am I engaging a new undertaking? Ask for advice and assistance from Lugh because he's good at everything. I try to be ecologically aware because the Morrigan's sister is Eire - the land itself - and part of the Morrigan's job description is to maintain the integrity and sovereignty of the land. Accordingly, I treat the actual land with respect.

And, explained with out any "woo woo", it's a perfectly reasonable psychological gambit. It makes you look outside the box - like using tarot or runes promotes lateral thinking.

Now, personally, I don't believe it's a purely psychological placebo effect. But if it was, it wouldn't make any difference to me.

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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 14:12 
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Taliesin wrote:
nygreenguy wrote:
sidhe wrote:
nygreenguy wrote:
Ok, everyone is so fricking vague! heh.

What is it with nature, and why do you have/believe in gods and or goddesses?


I like nature. It's pretty and sustains life on earth. I think that's a good reason.

I like ritual, and I like the idea that there's something more to life than what we see. Thus, I believe in deities. Multiple deities. I also willingly admit that it's irrational and their actual existence has no bearing on my belief or practice.


Thats a conversation killer.


I'll bet he gets that a lot.
:lol:


I do. :lol:

Seriously, for some reason hearing someone say, "Yeah, belief in deities is irrational, and I don't care, I do so anyway" is a guaranteed way to either kill a religious discussion, or piss EVERYONE off.

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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 18:27 
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Im just really confused and it doesnt seems like sidhe is the best to explain because it doesnt even seem like he believes what he practices!

Are the goddesses literal, or more symbolic?

Same question for the rituals? Do rituals HAVE to be done?


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 18:46 
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Ok, I can only answer for me, because I hope you've notived, pagans are a slippery bunch. Like Christians, only instead of occupying only violet and blue on the spectrum, we go from ultra violet to infrared...

Quote:
Are the goddesses literal, or more symbolic?



Yes.

Quote:
Same question for the rituals? Do rituals HAVE to be done?


Yes.

Personally, I feel that the majority of gods and goddesses exist(ed) literally, at least at some point. Regardless if they were heroes who were deified in story, ancestor spirits who became deified, or came into being as a human need I don't know. But each is also a symbol of a human need or desire, and as such, have power.

As for ritual--- I view it sorta like eating. You can do a formal ritual, with china and crystal and a 10 course meal, or you could cut to the chase and gnaw the meat off the bones standing over a pail. Ritual is the trappings, that can make things more satisfying, but they are not the whole of the matter.

You have four pagans in this thread. You'll get at least 8 answers...

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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 18:47 
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nygreenguy wrote:
Im just really confused and it doesnt seems like sidhe is the best to explain because it doesnt even seem like he believes what he practices!

Are the goddesses literal, or more symbolic?

Same question for the rituals? Do rituals HAVE to be done?


Well considering that I think very similar to Sidhe, though find different archetypes attractive. We believe what we practice, we just don't expect you to believe it. Though we don't believe it literally in a way that people translate God.

Gods and goddesses are more symbolic. Like archetypes. When I talk to "the good mother", Kali Ma, Medusa, I know I am more so talking to different aspects of myself.

no, rituals do not have to be done. Why would they? People are ritualistic in life regardless of belief system. It is called superstition. though I think I need to up the human sacrifices to honor my goddess ;)


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 18:49 
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Or what Jess said :D


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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 19:11 
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nygreenguy wrote:
Im just really confused and it doesnt seems like sidhe is the best to explain because it doesnt even seem like he believes what he practices!

Are the goddesses literal, or more symbolic?

Same question for the rituals? Do rituals HAVE to be done?


Oh, but I DO believe. If I didn't, I wouldn't put out cake and cookies (and, sometimes, bits of bread with blood and honey) for the Gods.

It's just that I don't expect you to, and I realize that it sounds totally irrational and silly. To me, it's not at all. It makes perfect sense to do these things. I just don't discount the fact that it probably looks funny.

Or what Bri and Jess said.

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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 19:12 
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Brianna wrote:
no, rituals do not have to be done. Why would they? People are ritualistic in life regardless of belief system. It is called superstition. though I think I need to up the human sacrifices to honor my goddess ;)


You too?

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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 19:13 
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There was a saying I heard once that may apply here: It doesn't matter what path I take, I'm always going home.

I think it's like that. No reason to force belief on other people, no worries about our own feelings. All roads lead home...

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PostPosted: 06 Jan 2009, 19:15 
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I prefer "Where ever you go, you're there."

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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2009, 15:24 
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Is there a pagan version of the bible? Some sort of holy book that sets out the stall?

Or even better, is there a pagan version of the Nicene Creed that sets out core tenets inside a page?


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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2009, 16:21 
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ok, c&p from the other thread...

jess wrote:
quick answer--- no there is no bible or creed.

Pagans are pretty diverse, overall, and there is no easy way to define them/us.

That's actually a reason for here--- so many boards are 'religion centered' (druid boards, wiccan boards, strega boards) that there is no interplay between pagans...

Technically, I guess this covers pagan, in the broad view:

Quote:
Main Entry: pa•gan
Pronunciation: \ˈpā-gən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix — more at pact[/i]
Date: 14th century
1: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3: neo-pagan (from 1869)

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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2009, 17:38 
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Ok then, it's all down to the individual.

What do you, jess, individually believe to be true?

Do you believe in the literal existence of gods and godesses, either in the past or here and now? Do you believe they possess/possessed supernatural powers and that you can get them to intercede for you in some way?

Do you believe that you can carry out a ritual of some sort and have it cause an effect which cannot be explained by normal science? Specifics?

What are your beliefs regarding an afterlife?

What are your beliefs regarding the creation of the universe?


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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2009, 22:16 
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Pendaric wrote:
Ok then, it's all down to the individual.

What do you, jess, individually believe to be true?

Do you believe in the literal existence of gods and godesses, either in the past or here and now?


A few posts above I sorta answered a similar question. He's a C&P.

jess wrote:
Ok, I can only answer for me, because I hope you've noticed, pagans are a slippery bunch. Like Christians, only instead of occupying only violet and blue on the spectrum, we go from ultra violet to infrared...

Quote:
Are the goddesses literal, or more symbolic?



Yes.
Personally, I feel that the majority of gods and goddesses exist(ed) literally, at least at some point. Regardless if they were heroes who were deified in story, ancestor spirits who became deified, or came into being as a human need I don't know. But each is also a symbol of a human need or desire, and as such, have power.

Quote:
Do you believe they possess/possessed supernatural powers and that you can get them to intercede for you in some way?
Quote:
Same question for the rituals? Do rituals HAVE to be done?




Yes.


As for ritual--- I view it sorta like eating. You can do a formal ritual, with china and crystal and a 10 course meal, or you could cut to the chase and gnaw the meat off the bones standing over a pail. Ritual is the trappings, that can make things more satisfying, but they are not the whole of the matter.

You have four pagans in this thread. You'll get at least 8 answers...

[/quote]

I believe that if god/desses exist, then they should be able to be implored to interceed. Whether or not they have the power is a different story.

I'd rather believe my deity is impotent than believe s/he is cruel or ambivalent.

Do you believe that you can carry out a ritual of some sort and have it cause an effect which cannot be explained by normal science? Specifics?


Not really. I believe it may be possible, but I don't count on it, or expect to see it in my life.
Except for Hex's runes. They prevent me from being really and completely skeptical.

What are your beliefs regarding an afterlife?

On good days, I believe that something lives on. I never believe that we merely continue to a heaven and remain with our personalities. But I do think something may continue.

I'm not sure where I stand on reincarnation.

What are your beliefs regarding the creation of the universe?

I do not believe in the Catholic 'as it was in the beginning, is now, and forever shall be', if that makes sense. Even if I believed that gods literally walked the earth, I would not believe that a silly anthropomorphic thing could create the universe.

I do seem to think of the universe as a mass in and of itself, something like a colony of algae or fungus--- not thinking, not self aware, but connected somehow. And we are part of that, even if we appear to be parasites sometimes. But I do not believe a 'god' 'created' it. The Big Bang works for me. Same with evolution, etc. Science is a pagan's tool--- even the most fluffy of us (oh no, I'm sure that's wrong!) will delight in anything science can explain, because magic is just science undiscovered.

There are a bunch of threads in Kuan Yins where people have discussed their beliefs. Please feel free to necromance any of them you'd like.

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