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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2010, 10:15 
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Are the wages of sin death or pleasure and reward?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I find this quote quite odd.

I do not know why all sins are performed but I do know that humans do not generally do what does not reward them somehow.

If sin were to somehow harm us or not reward us then it is not likely that we would do them.

I know that the sins that I have done were done for some kind of benefit, reward or pleasure for me.

I have sinned and am not quite dead yet so the above quote may mean spiritual or moral death.
Yet in many discussions, I find myself, to my way of thinking, often times in a more moral position than many believers. Strange.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This quote seems to say that we all sin and will all repent and all get to heaven thus eliminating that immoral construct called hell.

Please do not think that I wish to promote sinning. I do not. Except for small ones.
I do so, and think we have to, to make the above quote true and would suggest that, not if, but when you sin, make them small ones.

Regardless of this fact, I pose these questions to you.

Are the wages of sin death or pleasure and reward?
Should we and do we all sin?
Is sin a requirement to enter heaven as the quotes above suggests?
Is this why God creates man with a sin nature that cannot be fought?
Is hell an immoral construct and thus non existing.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 25 Mar 2010, 12:31 
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Do you get time-and-a-half for overtime sinning? Or is sin more like salaried-exempt? :umm:

"Sin" is a social construct. In practice it generally means nothing more than doing whatever those in power or seeking to exert power don't want you to do.

Quote:
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful - just stupid)." ~ Robert Heinlein


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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2010, 07:30 
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Zebulon wrote:
Do you get time-and-a-half for overtime sinning? Or is sin more like salaried-exempt? :umm:

"Sin" is a social construct. In practice it generally means nothing more than doing whatever those in power or seeking to exert power don't want you to do.

Quote:
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful - just stupid)." ~ Robert Heinlein


Agreed.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2010, 08:18 
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I remember being taught that it meant "death" in this case meant "loss of eternal life" which does kinda defeat an 'eternal life suffering in Hell'.

I remember in my Christian days thinking the line was really :

For the wages of life is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I also have long thought that the Serpent int he Garden was the truthful one, and Yahweh was the liar. Everything the Serpent said came to pass. Yahweh just sounded petulant.

In that case, without the sin of 'arrogance' (in the classic meaning of 'taking for yourself', when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge) there'd be no (free) life, only mindless enslavement to Yahweh.

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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2010, 09:33 
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The serpent is probably another remnant of early semitic polytheism. Lotan is the serpent of Ugaritic mythology.

I read the creation myth of the torah as a metaphor for the beginning of human self-awareness. The fall is from a more animal state of existence in the now to an awareness of self, past and future. Literally "self-consciousness".


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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2010, 09:46 
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Exactly my thought.

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PostPosted: 26 Mar 2010, 10:33 
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the wages of sin are great, sure pays better than the legal alternative. :P

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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2010, 19:44 
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Greatest I am wrote:
Are the wages of sin death or pleasure and reward?


In my not so humble opinion: "Yes", "it depends", and "Both". Pleasure and reward in the sense that the "sinner" derives something from it. "Death" in the metaphorical hellish punishment in an "after-life"

Greatest I am wrote:
Should we and do we all sin?


Yes. Of course, a Christian that believes in "Original Sin" might argue that we cannot help but sin.

Greatest I am wrote:
Is sin a requirement to enter heaven as the quotes above suggests?


I believe the stock answer is something to the effect of: forgiveness is necessary to enter heaven. To be forgiven, you must have transgressed, ergo sin is necessary. See comment about "original sin" above.

Greatest I am wrote:
Is this why God creates man with a sin nature that cannot be fought?


Again, I believe "the Christian" would argue that God did not create the nature of sin in man, but that man brought this all on himself. After all, "God" is responsible for all that is "Good" while "Man" is responsible for all the is "Evil".

Greatest I am wrote:
Is hell an immoral construct and thus non existing.


Check back with me after I am dead...


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2010, 06:49 
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jess wrote:
I remember being taught that it meant "death" in this case meant "loss of eternal life" which does kinda defeat an 'eternal life suffering in Hell'.

I remember in my Christian days thinking the line was really :

For the wages of life is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I also have long thought that the Serpent int he Garden was the truthful one, and Yahweh was the liar. Everything the Serpent said came to pass. Yahweh just sounded petulant.

In that case, without the sin of 'arrogance' (in the classic meaning of 'taking for yourself', when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge) there'd be no (free) life, only mindless enslavement to Yahweh.


It would break all the rules of nature and physics for man to live forever in his body. Entropy never stops.

I do believe, thanks to my apotheosis, that we do have an afterlife, but I have no evidence to show.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2010, 06:52 
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Zebulon wrote:
The serpent is probably another remnant of early semitic polytheism. Lotan is the serpent of Ugaritic mythology.

I read the creation myth of the torah as a metaphor for the beginning of human self-awareness. The fall is from a more animal state of existence in the now to an awareness of self, past and future. Literally "self-consciousness".


Strange how this elevation of thinking was called a fall.
I guess it is for sheeple who do not want to think and just follow where real people like to think.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2010, 06:56 
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HavenMage wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Are the wages of sin death or pleasure and reward?


In my not so humble opinion: "Yes", "it depends", and "Both". Pleasure and reward in the sense that the "sinner" derives something from it. "Death" in the metaphorical hellish punishment in an "after-life"

Greatest I am wrote:
Should we and do we all sin?


Yes. Of course, a Christian that believes in "Original Sin" might argue that we cannot help but sin.

Greatest I am wrote:
Is sin a requirement to enter heaven as the quotes above suggests?


I believe the stock answer is something to the effect of: forgiveness is necessary to enter heaven. To be forgiven, you must have transgressed, ergo sin is necessary. See comment about "original sin" above.

Greatest I am wrote:
Is this why God creates man with a sin nature that cannot be fought?


Again, I believe "the Christian" would argue that God did not create the nature of sin in man, but that man brought this all on himself. After all, "God" is responsible for all that is "Good" while "Man" is responsible for all the is "Evil".

Greatest I am wrote:
Is hell an immoral construct and thus non existing.


Check back with me after I am dead...


I will. My paradigm says that we will all meet.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2010, 09:42 
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HavenMage wrote:
After all, "God" is responsible for all that is "Good" while "Man" is responsible for all the is "Evil".

If one posits a god that is omnipotent and omniscient, then it is ultimately responsible for all that is evil as well as all that is good.

A concept that was understood by at least one stream of ancient Jewish thought:

Quote:
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am YHWH, that doeth all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2010, 09:50 
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Greatest I am wrote:
Strange how this elevation of thinking was called a fall.

Along the lines of "ignorance is bliss", I suppose. :)

The knowledge of good and evil is a double-edged sword. Consider how many traditions seek to escape the self and return to a state of no-mind through meditation, trance, ritual etc. It is as if we cannot bear the burden of self-awareness.


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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2010, 11:00 
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Zebulon wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Strange how this elevation of thinking was called a fall.

Along the lines of "ignorance is bliss", I suppose. :)

The knowledge of good and evil is a double-edged sword. Consider how many traditions seek to escape the self and return to a state of no-mind through meditation, trance, ritual etc. It is as if we cannot bear the burden of self-awareness.



Yes. We do not like the fact that we all contribute to the conditions we find ourselves in.
Easier to blame some non existing bogy man than ourselves.
Some day we will all step up. I hope.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2015, 02:02 
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cannot bear the burden of self-awareness.
golden slot ผ่านเว็บ


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