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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2010, 15:17 
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Who should forgive? God or us?

Much has been written on repentance and how one must seek forgiveness and repent to gain heaven.

Sin should always has a victim or someone hurt, if you will, by the sin.

It is healthy for a victim to eventually have closure on the issue and forgive.
It is also morally healthy for the sinner to repent and seek forgiveness.

If both the sinner and victim see this and the victim forgives and the sinner repents to the victim, then what does God have to do with the issue?
He is a third party and irrelevant of the particular sin in question.
God was not sinned against and even if you think He is somehow offended then it is His problem for taking offence because one human sinned against another human.

Whose forgiveness is more important?
God’s or the victims?

If the victim does not choose to forgive, does God have any business usurping this benefit from the victim?

If a sinner is forgiven by his victim but is a non believer, does God still hold this, now forgiven sin, against the non believer who, for all we know, has no other sins?

That would seem to be unjust.

Further, Jesus says, only through me, as the path to heaven. This seems to retire the Father and Holy spirit and make them irrelevant to us. This is strange in light of Jesus’ words that say no one is good except God the Father.

Thoughts.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010, 07:11 
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Sin, I believe, is intended to refer to an act that is abhorrent to "God". I personally believe that the concept of sin was created to cajole anti-social persons into conforming to a societal norm.

To Christian persons, as I understand it, if the sin is committed against another mortal and the whole forgiveness thing is dealt with in that mortal's life, then they are forgiven by "God" as well, I think. On the other hand, if the sinner does not repent, even if forgiven by the victim, they must still face the wrath of "God". And there are sins that are against god, so can only be forgiven by "him/her/it".

The victim's forgiveness comes back to the concept of some otherworldly paradise after mortal death. If the victim of sin does not forgive he may harbor the hateful desire for vengeance, he has sinned since vengeance is "God's" bailiwick, mostly...

Justice has nothing to do with God, Sin, or the Law. IMnsHO.

As to what Jesus said, it is amazingly handy how that little phrase can make all non-Christians and everything they believe inconsequential...


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010, 08:57 
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I have always understood it to be if you commit a sin against another you must be truly sorry for it. The person who was wronged does not have to forgive. Sin is against God, so if your sorry he then can forgive. If the victim does not forgive then that is between them and God. If you are sinned against you must forgive since you are forgiven. It all comes down to God forgives therefore, you have to. If your sinning you must be sorry.

But that only applies to those who have accepted Christ. The rest don't matter since they are going to Hell.

Psychologically and emotionally, forgiving has great benefit. It tends to be good for people. Whether someone asks to be or not.


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010, 11:02 
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willynilly wrote:
I have always understood it to be if you commit a sin against another you must be truly sorry for it. The person who was wronged does not have to forgive. Sin is against God, so if your sorry he then can forgive. If the victim does not forgive then that is between them and God. If you are sinned against you must forgive since you are forgiven. It all comes down to God forgives therefore, you have to. If your sinning you must be sorry.

But that only applies to those who have accepted Christ. The rest don't matter since they are going to Hell.

Psychologically and emotionally, forgiving has great benefit. It tends to be good for people. Whether someone asks to be or not.


I agree completely with your last.

As to sinning against God.

If I steal your shoes, does God go barefoot?

I kind of like that idea.


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2010, 11:04 
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HavenMage wrote:
Sin, I believe, is intended to refer to an act that is abhorrent to "God". I personally believe that the concept of sin was created to cajole anti-social persons into conforming to a societal norm.

To Christian persons, as I understand it, if the sin is committed against another mortal and the whole forgiveness thing is dealt with in that mortal's life, then they are forgiven by "God" as well, I think. On the other hand, if the sinner does not repent, even if forgiven by the victim, they must still face the wrath of "God". And there are sins that are against god, so can only be forgiven by "him/her/it".

The victim's forgiveness comes back to the concept of some otherworldly paradise after mortal death. If the victim of sin does not forgive he may harbor the hateful desire for vengeance, he has sinned since vengeance is "God's" bailiwick, mostly...

Justice has nothing to do with God, Sin, or the Law. IMnsHO.

As to what Jesus said, it is amazingly handy how that little phrase can make all non-Christians and everything they believe inconsequential...


Archetypes have a way of doing that for sure.
At least to foolish believers.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 04:19 
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The Power to Scry
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willynilly wrote:
I have always understood it to be if you commit a sin against another you must be truly sorry for it. The person who was wronged does not have to forgive. Sin is against God, so if your sorry he then can forgive. If the victim does not forgive then that is between them and God. If you are sinned against you must forgive since you are forgiven. It all comes down to God forgives therefore, you have to. If your sinning you must be sorry.

But that only applies to those who have accepted Christ. The rest don't matter since they are going to Hell.

Psychologically and emotionally, forgiving has great benefit. It tends to be good for people. Whether someone asks to be or not.


Actually one modification, not in all Christian religions are we all going to hell, although frankly all the best people are there so meh. *Shamelessly plagiarises Mark twain*

"Go to heaven for the weather, hell for the company."

Amongst others.

@ Greatest I am, God doesn't need shoes he is without humanly discernible form, although Jesus might of.

I prefer the Eastern Orthodox view that sins that aren't trivial leave you apostate until they are resolved, makes more sense to exclude the unrepentant from a religion on Earth as well instead of just in the after life.

Quote:
Further, Jesus says, only through me, as the path to heaven. This seems to retire the Father and Holy spirit and make them irrelevant to us. This is strange in light of Jesus’ words that say no one is good except God the Father.


I'd dispute anyone ever said anything remotely like this, and the source documents are dubiously questionable at best. The earliest source documents usually don't have any of the magic and damnation of the later texts though. And are thus more boring and less useful in the propaganda war for hearts and minds by the fledgling church.

The issue of the triune, is an issue of such magnitude that it was one of the reasons for the first Schism of the church into Eastern Orthodoxy (Byzantine Eastwards) and Roman Catholicism (Holy Roman Empire). Some thought he was like wine and water seperate and yet one and the same, others though they were distinct entities, but such matters were hardly trivial. Either way though only through God can you get to heaven, be that through Jesus or God is semantics, and has no relevance to dogmatic concerns, as they are one and the same.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


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PostPosted: 07 Jun 2010, 07:38 
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Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
Posts: 94
The Dagda wrote:
willynilly wrote:
I have always understood it to be if you commit a sin against another you must be truly sorry for it. The person who was wronged does not have to forgive. Sin is against God, so if your sorry he then can forgive. If the victim does not forgive then that is between them and God. If you are sinned against you must forgive since you are forgiven. It all comes down to God forgives therefore, you have to. If your sinning you must be sorry.

But that only applies to those who have accepted Christ. The rest don't matter since they are going to Hell.

Psychologically and emotionally, forgiving has great benefit. It tends to be good for people. Whether someone asks to be or not.


Actually one modification, not in all Christian religions are we all going to hell, although frankly all the best people are there so meh. *Shamelessly plagiarises Mark twain*

"Go to heaven for the weather, hell for the company."

Amongst others.

@ Greatest I am, God doesn't need shoes he is without humanly discernible form, although Jesus might of.

I prefer the Eastern Orthodox view that sins that aren't trivial leave you apostate until they are resolved, makes more sense to exclude the unrepentant from a religion on Earth as well instead of just in the after life.

Quote:
Further, Jesus says, only through me, as the path to heaven. This seems to retire the Father and Holy spirit and make them irrelevant to us. This is strange in light of Jesus’ words that say no one is good except God the Father.


I'd dispute anyone ever said anything remotely like this, and the source documents are dubiously questionable at best. The earliest source documents usually don't have any of the magic and damnation of the later texts though. And are thus more boring and less useful in the propaganda war for hearts and minds by the fledgling church.

The issue of the triune, is an issue of such magnitude that it was one of the reasons for the first Schism of the church into Eastern Orthodoxy (Byzantine Eastwards) and Roman Catholicism (Holy Roman Empire). Some thought he was like wine and water seperate and yet one and the same, others though they were distinct entities, but such matters were hardly trivial. Either way though only through God can you get to heaven, be that through Jesus or God is semantics, and has no relevance to dogmatic concerns, as they are one and the same.


So dagma then would say that God can die. Wow.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2010, 13:33 
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The Power to Scry
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Joined: 05 Dec 2009, 05:45
Posts: 803
Location: My house
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
willynilly wrote:
I have always understood it to be if you commit a sin against another you must be truly sorry for it. The person who was wronged does not have to forgive. Sin is against God, so if your sorry he then can forgive. If the victim does not forgive then that is between them and God. If you are sinned against you must forgive since you are forgiven. It all comes down to God forgives therefore, you have to. If your sinning you must be sorry.

But that only applies to those who have accepted Christ. The rest don't matter since they are going to Hell.

Psychologically and emotionally, forgiving has great benefit. It tends to be good for people. Whether someone asks to be or not.


Actually one modification, not in all Christian religions are we all going to hell, although frankly all the best people are there so meh. *Shamelessly plagiarises Mark twain*

"Go to heaven for the weather, hell for the company."

Amongst others.

@ Greatest I am, God doesn't need shoes he is without humanly discernible form, although Jesus might of.

I prefer the Eastern Orthodox view that sins that aren't trivial leave you apostate until they are resolved, makes more sense to exclude the unrepentant from a religion on Earth as well instead of just in the after life.

Quote:
Further, Jesus says, only through me, as the path to heaven. This seems to retire the Father and Holy spirit and make them irrelevant to us. This is strange in light of Jesus’ words that say no one is good except God the Father.


I'd dispute anyone ever said anything remotely like this, and the source documents are dubiously questionable at best. The earliest source documents usually don't have any of the magic and damnation of the later texts though. And are thus more boring and less useful in the propaganda war for hearts and minds by the fledgling church.

The issue of the triune, is an issue of such magnitude that it was one of the reasons for the first Schism of the church into Eastern Orthodoxy (Byzantine Eastwards) and Roman Catholicism (Holy Roman Empire). Some thought he was like wine and water seperate and yet one and the same, others though they were distinct entities, but such matters were hardly trivial. Either way though only through God can you get to heaven, be that through Jesus or God is semantics, and has no relevance to dogmatic concerns, as they are one and the same.


So dagma then would say that God can die. Wow.

Regards
DL


You have a habit of taking what I say and just making something up I didn't remotely even mean. No God can't die, he is immortal.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2010, 15:20 
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Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
Posts: 94
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
willynilly wrote:
Regards
DL


You have a habit of taking what I say and just making something up I didn't remotely even mean. No God can't die, he is immortal.


Must be how I read what you write or the way I read.

If God/Jesus cannot die, then there was no vicarious sacrifice or atonement then.

Right?

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010, 12:53 
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The Power to Scry
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Joined: 05 Dec 2009, 05:45
Posts: 803
Location: My house
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
willynilly wrote:
Regards
DL


You have a habit of taking what I say and just making something up I didn't remotely even mean. No God can't die, he is immortal.


Must be how I read what you write or the way I read.

If God/Jesus cannot die, then there was no vicarious sacrifice or atonement then.

Right?

Regards
DL


Jesus died but he was resurrected and came back to life, hence he is immortal.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


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 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2010, 20:13 
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Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
Posts: 94
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
willynilly wrote:
Regards
DL


You have a habit of taking what I say and just making something up I didn't remotely even mean. No God can't die, he is immortal.


Must be how I read what you write or the way I read.

If God/Jesus cannot die, then there was no vicarious sacrifice or atonement then.

Right?

Regards
DL


Jesus died but he was resurrected and came back to life, hence he is immortal.


Really?
Other than hear say or Bible say, how do you know for sure?

So you have bought into fantasy after all.
Talking animals and water walking, the whole bit or what?

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2010, 08:45 
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The Power to Scry
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Joined: 05 Dec 2009, 05:45
Posts: 803
Location: My house
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
willynilly wrote:
Regards
DL


You have a habit of taking what I say and just making something up I didn't remotely even mean. No God can't die, he is immortal.


Must be how I read what you write or the way I read.

If God/Jesus cannot die, then there was no vicarious sacrifice or atonement then.

Right?

Regards
DL


Jesus died but he was resurrected and came back to life, hence he is immortal.


Really?
Other than hear say or Bible say, how do you know for sure?

So you have bought into fantasy after all.
Talking animals and water walking, the whole bit or what?

Regards
DL


Oh no you've caught me out! ;)

I'm relating Christian dogma not matters of fact. :cheeky:

Please tell me you didn't think I was trying to preach my religion, I would of thought you would, after being told I am not a Christian on several occasions, have realised by now I am not in fact religious at all. If you want to attack Christian people for their genuinely held beliefs, perhaps you chose the wrong sort of site. :)

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2010, 10:40 
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Adherent

Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
Posts: 94
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
willynilly wrote:
Regards
DL


You have a habit of taking what I say and just making something up I didn't remotely even mean. No God can't die, he is immortal.


Must be how I read what you write or the way I read.

If God/Jesus cannot die, then there was no vicarious sacrifice or atonement then.

Right?

Regards
DL


Jesus died but he was resurrected and came back to life, hence he is immortal.


Really?
Other than hear say or Bible say, how do you know for sure?

So you have bought into fantasy after all.
Talking animals and water walking, the whole bit or what?

Regards
DL


Oh no you've caught me out! ;)

I'm relating Christian dogma not matters of fact. :cheeky:

Please tell me you didn't think I was trying to preach my religion, I would of thought you would, after being told I am not a Christian on several occasions, have realised by now I am not in fact religious at all. If you w
nt to attack Christian people for their genuinely held beliefs, perhaps you chose the wrong sort of site. :)


You may be right. Time will tell.

Regards
DL


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