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PostPosted: 23 Jun 2010, 09:42 
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Honor, adore and worship. Why?

If there were a God of any kind, He or She or It could not help being what it is.

Why then would anyone want to honor or adore or worship what cannot help but be what it is?

If you do then you may as well adore the sun or moon or that rock at your feet.

All of these including God cannot help but be as they are. All people by this definition would also be candidates for adoration, reverence and respect and worship.

Perhaps this is why one of the Jesus archetypes said, have ye forgotten that ye are Gods?

To give honor, adoration and worship then is very close to idol worship. Why then do you seek an idol? Do you have some kind of instinct that forces you to seek something to revere?

Would you like to be honored, adored and worshiped just for being what you cannot help being?

Why would you seek to honor, adore and worship anything or anyone?

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 24 Jun 2010, 04:13 
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We appear to be programmed to be religious to varying degrees yes. In fact you can make people have religious experiences by stimulating particular areas of the their brain. People say they feel a deep feeling of peacefulness, disconnected with their body and that there is some sort of connection to another presence and all the things associated with a spiritual experience. There are also some people who when you stimulate the same regions feel absolutely nothing and cannot have such experiences and everyone in between. The question then becomes why did we evolve the propensity to be religious and what evolutionary advantage did it have? If you are religious of course you would claim that it was given to you by God, but then that makes an issue of free will, one should be able to chose not to worship or believe according to Christianity, not be more inherently likely to do so because of your genetics. Christianity and indeed most beliefs never makes perfect sense as a religion but in terms of anthropology they always do. We can explain why people would seek to worship something more than themselves in context, it just starts to lose any substantial reason when we are independent, diverse and sophisticated culturally enough not to need it.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


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PostPosted: 25 Jun 2010, 14:31 
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The Dagda wrote:
We appear to be programmed to be religious to varying degrees yes. In fact you can make people have religious experiences by stimulating particular areas of the their brain. People say they feel a deep feeling of peacefulness, disconnected with their body and that there is some sort of connection to another presence and all the things associated with a spiritual experience. There are also some people who when you stimulate the same regions feel absolutely nothing and cannot have such experiences and everyone in between. The question then becomes why did we evolve the propensity to be religious and what evolutionary advantage did it have? If you are religious of course you would claim that it was given to you by God, but then that makes an issue of free will, one should be able to chose not to worship or believe according to Christianity, not be more inherently likely to do so because of your genetics. Christianity and indeed most beliefs never makes perfect sense as a religion but in terms of anthropology they always do. We can explain why people would seek to worship something more than themselves in context, it just starts to lose any substantial reason when we are independent, diverse and sophisticated culturally enough not to need it.


I believe that we will always need it for good mental health.
The way I see things is that we have two basic natures, our political nature that looks after our physical being and a spiritual nature that is more concerned with our mental well being.
Archetypal Jesus may have shown knowledge of this with his give to Cesar what is Cesar's and give to God what is God's.

These two natures could be seen as our conscious and our subconscious.
This would also explain things like, God is within you. The Gnostic view and sometimes Christian view of the kingdom of God is within you.
It also explains how God popped up everywhere.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 26 Jun 2010, 04:05 
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Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
We appear to be programmed to be religious to varying degrees yes. In fact you can make people have religious experiences by stimulating particular areas of the their brain. People say they feel a deep feeling of peacefulness, disconnected with their body and that there is some sort of connection to another presence and all the things associated with a spiritual experience. There are also some people who when you stimulate the same regions feel absolutely nothing and cannot have such experiences and everyone in between. The question then becomes why did we evolve the propensity to be religious and what evolutionary advantage did it have? If you are religious of course you would claim that it was given to you by God, but then that makes an issue of free will, one should be able to chose not to worship or believe according to Christianity, not be more inherently likely to do so because of your genetics. Christianity and indeed most beliefs never makes perfect sense as a religion but in terms of anthropology they always do. We can explain why people would seek to worship something more than themselves in context, it just starts to lose any substantial reason when we are independent, diverse and sophisticated culturally enough not to need it.


I believe that we will always need it for good mental health.
The way I see things is that we have two basic natures, our political nature that looks after our physical being and a spiritual nature that is more concerned with our mental well being.
Archetypal Jesus may have shown knowledge of this with his give to Cesar what is Cesar's and give to God what is God's.

These two natures could be seen as our conscious and our subconscious.
This would also explain things like, God is within you. The Gnostic view and sometimes Christian view of the kingdom of God is within you.
It also explains how God popped up everywhere.

Regards
DL


I believe we have out grown it. For good mental health, to make up ignorant stories to cover up what we don't know? Seems more that we would need it for poor mental health, since delusions are a mental illness in and of themselves, the only difference between religion and insane delusions is that we give special recognition to religious ones, presumably as they are indoctrinated in us culturally, and thus don't come from a deranged mind. Although frankly that in itself is debatable.

Well you summed it up in psychology alone, there is a subconscious and a conscious. Perhaps all we need to do is understand our own minds, instead of devolving our responsibility for our own minds to some invisible sky god, who may or may not exist, and by doing so making excuses for our motivations with any amount of imaginative fiction. It's far healthier to blame yourself for your moral virtues, than to apologise for it by explaining some invented figure wills it, or some religious authority figure does even. When there wasn't a great deal of cultural sophistication such issues may of been necessary. Now they are an extra unnecessary level, and one that in most countries thankfully is completely ignored by the state.

Jesus was merely neatly avoiding a trap set by the Pharisee, by saying spiritual things are in the realm of God, and material (monetary things) in the realm of the state. Had he said taxes should not be paid as they expected, he would of no doubt been subject to Roman law, and they would of had him.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


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PostPosted: 26 Jun 2010, 07:57 
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The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
We appear to be programmed to be religious to varying degrees yes. In fact you can make people have religious experiences by stimulating particular areas of the their brain. People say they feel a deep feeling of peacefulness, disconnected with their body and that there is some sort of connection to another presence and all the things associated with a spiritual experience. There are also some people who when you stimulate the same regions feel absolutely nothing and cannot have such experiences and everyone in between. The question then becomes why did we evolve the propensity to be religious and what evolutionary advantage did it have? If you are religious of course you would claim that it was given to you by God, but then that makes an issue of free will, one should be able to chose not to worship or believe according to Christianity, not be more inherently likely to do so because of your genetics. Christianity and indeed most beliefs never makes perfect sense as a religion but in terms of anthropology they always do. We can explain why people would seek to worship something more than themselves in context, it just starts to lose any substantial reason when we are independent, diverse and sophisticated culturally enough not to need it.


I believe that we will always need it for good mental health.
The way I see things is that we have two basic natures, our political nature that looks after our physical being and a spiritual nature that is more concerned with our mental well being.
Archetypal Jesus may have shown knowledge of this with his give to Cesar what is Cesar's and give to God what is God's.

These two natures could be seen as our conscious and our subconscious.
This would also explain things like, God is within you. The Gnostic view and sometimes Christian view of the kingdom of God is within you.
It also explains how God popped up everywhere.

Regards
DL


I believe we have out grown it. For good mental health, to make up ignorant stories to cover up what we don't know? Seems more that we would need it for poor mental health, since delusions are a mental illness in and of themselves, the only difference between religion and insane delusions is that we give special recognition to religious ones, presumably as they are indoctrinated in us culturally, and thus don't come from a deranged mind. Although frankly that in itself is debatable.

Well you summed it up in psychology alone, there is a subconscious and a conscious. Perhaps all we need to do is understand our own minds, instead of devolving our responsibility for our own minds to some invisible sky god, who may or may not exist, and by doing so making excuses for our motivations with any amount of imaginative fiction. It's far healthier to blame yourself for your moral virtues, than to apologise for it by explaining some invented figure wills it, or some religious authority figure does even. When there wasn't a great deal of cultural sophistication such issues may of been necessary. Now they are an extra unnecessary level, and one that in most countries thankfully is completely ignored by the state.

Jesus was merely neatly avoiding a trap set by the Pharisee, by saying spiritual things are in the realm of God, and material (monetary things) in the realm of the state. Had he said taxes should not be paid as they expected, he would of no doubt been subject to Roman law, and they would of had him.


Perhaps. Roman law did get him in the end though. Or allowed his death depending on how you read the account.
I read it as fiction and it is thus irrelevant.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 27 Jun 2010, 03:30 
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The Power to Scry
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Joined: 05 Dec 2009, 05:45
Posts: 803
Location: My house
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
We appear to be programmed to be religious to varying degrees yes. In fact you can make people have religious experiences by stimulating particular areas of the their brain. People say they feel a deep feeling of peacefulness, disconnected with their body and that there is some sort of connection to another presence and all the things associated with a spiritual experience. There are also some people who when you stimulate the same regions feel absolutely nothing and cannot have such experiences and everyone in between. The question then becomes why did we evolve the propensity to be religious and what evolutionary advantage did it have? If you are religious of course you would claim that it was given to you by God, but then that makes an issue of free will, one should be able to chose not to worship or believe according to Christianity, not be more inherently likely to do so because of your genetics. Christianity and indeed most beliefs never makes perfect sense as a religion but in terms of anthropology they always do. We can explain why people would seek to worship something more than themselves in context, it just starts to lose any substantial reason when we are independent, diverse and sophisticated culturally enough not to need it.


I believe that we will always need it for good mental health.
The way I see things is that we have two basic natures, our political nature that looks after our physical being and a spiritual nature that is more concerned with our mental well being.
Archetypal Jesus may have shown knowledge of this with his give to Cesar what is Cesar's and give to God what is God's.

These two natures could be seen as our conscious and our subconscious.
This would also explain things like, God is within you. The Gnostic view and sometimes Christian view of the kingdom of God is within you.
It also explains how God popped up everywhere.

Regards
DL


I believe we have out grown it. For good mental health, to make up ignorant stories to cover up what we don't know? Seems more that we would need it for poor mental health, since delusions are a mental illness in and of themselves, the only difference between religion and insane delusions is that we give special recognition to religious ones, presumably as they are indoctrinated in us culturally, and thus don't come from a deranged mind. Although frankly that in itself is debatable.

Well you summed it up in psychology alone, there is a subconscious and a conscious. Perhaps all we need to do is understand our own minds, instead of devolving our responsibility for our own minds to some invisible sky god, who may or may not exist, and by doing so making excuses for our motivations with any amount of imaginative fiction. It's far healthier to blame yourself for your moral virtues, than to apologise for it by explaining some invented figure wills it, or some religious authority figure does even. When there wasn't a great deal of cultural sophistication such issues may of been necessary. Now they are an extra unnecessary level, and one that in most countries thankfully is completely ignored by the state.

Jesus was merely neatly avoiding a trap set by the Pharisee, by saying spiritual things are in the realm of God, and material (monetary things) in the realm of the state. Had he said taxes should not be paid as they expected, he would of no doubt been subject to Roman law, and they would of had him.


Perhaps. Roman law did get him in the end though. Or allowed his death depending on how you read the account.
I read it as fiction and it is thus irrelevant.

Regards
DL


Roman pragmatism got him in the end, Jesus was a hot potato pronounced innocent by both Pontius and then Herod who deemed him to be touched or mad, (although sincerely I think he just didn't want to touch that one with a 1000 foot barge pole) but the Pharisee wanted blood and in the end - with some some serious external pressure admittedly - Pontius saw a peaceful conclusion with the least upheaval as the easiest solution, after all the Jewish elite sect or Pharisee was a far more powerful political movement than a tiny band of Christians. Whether you believe Jesus is the son of God or some upstart inciting sedition or a fiction, the story is at least consistent in terms of the political motivations of the antagonists.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


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PostPosted: 02 Jul 2010, 10:21 
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Yes. Reasonably clear.

Perhaps the Jews just wanted to show the Romans their power.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 03 Jul 2010, 03:37 
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Greatest I am wrote:
Yes. Reasonably clear.

Perhaps the Jews just wanted to show the Romans their power.

Regards
DL


If that was the case then Pontius would of crushed any indication that lead them to that belief, no doubt. The Jews had no power or they would of stoned Jesus to death without first asking the Romans. The very fact that they didn't take the case before their own leaders means they had given up their own right to trial in favour of the rulers of their state.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2010, 13:05 
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Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
Posts: 94
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Yes. Reasonably clear.

Perhaps the Jews just wanted to show the Romans their power.

Regards
DL


If that was the case then Pontius would of crushed any indication that lead them to that belief, no doubt. The Jews had no power or they would of stoned Jesus to death without first asking the Romans. The very fact that they didn't take the case before their own leaders means they had given up their own right to trial in favour of the rulers of their state.


The way I read the myth is that the Jews had already convicted Jesus and were just having the Romans do their dirty work for them.
After all, the Romans did not care if Jesus lived or died. They just wanted a legal reason to kill him.

Regards
DL


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PostPosted: 08 Jul 2010, 18:04 
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The Power to Scry
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Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Yes. Reasonably clear.

Perhaps the Jews just wanted to show the Romans their power.

Regards
DL


If that was the case then Pontius would of crushed any indication that lead them to that belief, no doubt. The Jews had no power or they would of stoned Jesus to death without first asking the Romans. The very fact that they didn't take the case before their own leaders means they had given up their own right to trial in favour of the rulers of their state.


The way I read the myth is that the Jews had already convicted Jesus and were just having the Romans do their dirty work for them.
After all, the Romans did not care if Jesus lived or died. They just wanted a legal reason to kill him.

Regards
DL


You'd be wrong then. The Jews needed a legal reason to kill him or they couldn't, it's as simple as that. The Romans were the law, the only way the Jews could act would of been by being granted the right to try their own case under their law, a right given to Herod who then refused to act on it, probably for political reasons. Pilate would of preferred if Jesus lived, if he hadn't of been so strongly propositioned he probably would of maintained that Jesus was not guilty of any crime, just as Herod did. I seem to remember even his wife tried to persuade him of Jesus' culpability, that might of tipped the balance towards the Pharisee.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


Top
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