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 Post subject: Does God enjoy evil?
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2010, 13:43 
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Does God enjoy evil?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ephesians 3:8-10
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:15-17
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

God thus seems to have created evil, as He created all concepts, for his pleasure, including evil.

How does God get pleasure from evil and is He allowing it to happen?

Hell is demonstrably an immoral and evil construct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZM3FXlLMug

Does God get pleasure from it’s existence?

Man has laws against men allowing evil to happen when they have a way to prevent it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omission_(criminal_law)#Some_offences_require_acts

Does that mean that man is more moral than God?

Regards
DL


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 Post subject: Re: Does God enjoy evil?
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2010, 08:22 
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First thought. I gain pleasure from things I do not like. Not because the thing itself is pleasurable, but from having been challenged by it. Therefore, if a "God" exists that is "Benevolent" said entity might gain pleasure from the successful struggle to overcome a challenge.


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 Post subject: Re: Does God enjoy evil?
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2010, 03:24 
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Note that Adam and eve only became aware of evil through the tree of knowledge. The usual line is that without the ability to know of and or commit evil, good becomes meaningless, philosophically that's very robust the only problem is of course is when you consider the source of all evil is and has to be God. He would of known Satan would become prideful of his work in the heavens rebel and fall from heaven, in fact it was Gods direct fault it happened and had to be, if not then God is not omniscient, if he did corrupt his own creation though that leads to questions about his omnibenevolence, these are only resolved by claiming that what would be best for creation would be to have good and evil instead of just good. In the garden of Eden story it is not the tree of good and evil that is bad it is that Adam and Eve deliberately eat from it despite being told not to. The blame is placed on the head of a serpent (in Christian mythology often associated with Satan, although not so much in the Jewish mythologies). It's not a question of God getting pleasure from evil, its more that it has to exist for good to have any meaning, it is a necessary evil. :)

Of course the whole putting a tree that gives people insight into good and evil in a garden and then telling them not to eat its fruit story is logically inconsistent anyway. If of course you are omniscient why would you do that unless you knew precisely by telling them not to eat the fruit they would? But then the story has to be put in perspective with the time it was written, and the fact that God always seems to have limited omniscience in the OT, its only later on in Jewish history that he becomes omniscient about the future perfectly.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


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 Post subject: Re: Does God enjoy evil?
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2010, 07:00 
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The Dagda wrote:
But then the story has to be put in perspective with the time it was written, and the fact that God always seems to have limited omniscience in the OT, its only later on in Jewish history that he becomes omniscient about the future perfectly.


A left over from the time when the Jews were a full on polytheistic faith perhaps?


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 Post subject: Re: Does God enjoy evil?
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2010, 07:47 
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HavenMage wrote:
The Dagda wrote:
But then the story has to be put in perspective with the time it was written, and the fact that God always seems to have limited omniscience in the OT, its only later on in Jewish history that he becomes omniscient about the future perfectly.


A left over from the time when the Jews were a full on polytheistic faith perhaps?


Possibly just a philosophical adjustment as thinking moved from the ancient era into the classical period. Jewish philosophers may not be as well known as Greek ones but they would of been no less influenced by the times. There's the issue of good and evil and omnibenevolence, without absolute omniscience omnibenevolence becomes philosophically impossible. I don't know though, its certainly true that the faith started off as a sub division of faiths in the Babylonian area, hard to say as there's not a lot of evidence of the culture from that period.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


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 Post subject: Re: Does God enjoy evil?
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2010, 07:47 
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HavenMage wrote:
First thought. I gain pleasure from things I do not like. Not because the thing itself is pleasurable, but from having been challenged by it. Therefore, if a "God" exists that is "Benevolent" said entity might gain pleasure from the successful struggle to overcome a challenge.


I can go along with that for you and I and our pleasure but your analogy speaks to God enjoying the challenge.

God is not challenged by evil. Man is.
We then gain the pleasure, not God.

Regards
DL


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 Post subject: Re: Does God enjoy evil?
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2010, 09:47 
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HavenMage wrote:
First thought. I gain pleasure from things I do not like. Not because the thing itself is pleasurable, but from having been challenged by it. Therefore, if a "God" exists that is "Benevolent" said entity might gain pleasure from the successful struggle to overcome a challenge.


Like creating a Loyal opposition.

Archetypal Satan.

Regards
DL


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 Post subject: Re: Does God enjoy evil?
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2010, 09:52 
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The Dagda wrote:
Note that Adam and eve only became aware of evil through the tree of knowledge. The usual line is that without the ability to know of and or commit evil, good becomes meaningless, philosophically that's very robust the only problem is of course is when you consider the source of all evil is and has to be God. He would of known Satan would become prideful of his work in the heavens rebel and fall from heaven, in fact it was Gods direct fault it happened and had to be, if not then God is not omniscient, if he did corrupt his own creation though that leads to questions about his omnibenevolence, these are only resolved by claiming that what would be best for creation would be to have good and evil instead of just good. In the garden of Eden story it is not the tree of good and evil that is bad it is that Adam and Eve deliberately eat from it despite being told not to. The blame is placed on the head of a serpent (in Christian mythology often associated with Satan, although not so much in the Jewish mythologies). It's not a question of God getting pleasure from evil, its more that it has to exist for good to have any meaning, it is a necessary evil. :)

Of course the whole putting a tree that gives people insight into good and evil in a garden and then telling them not to eat its fruit story is logically inconsistent anyway. If of course you are omniscient why would you do that unless you knew precisely by telling them not to eat the fruit they would? But then the story has to be put in perspective with the time it was written, and the fact that God always seems to have limited omniscience in the OT, its only later on in Jewish history that he becomes omniscient about the future perfectly.


Yes, God has many failings.

In moral terms, the terms Good & Evil are only useful on a graph & are Inseparable.

I see that many just look at these terms as opposites.
Black white.
Hot cold.
Whatever.

It does not matter because, in moral terms, good and evil must be on a graph to be of any use to any discussion of moral issues.

That is why the ancients wrote them into the Bible as the tree of good and evil.
It’s fruit symbolizes that good and evil cannot be separated.

As nouns, forget it. For morals, they do not stand well alone.

As adjectives, they are good.

It is what goes between these two adjectives that is at issue and how and where we place them on the graph.
Ideally, the good and evil line will have a top and a bottom because issues often times have both within their character.
Like God for instance.

Basically, if you are arguing good and evil in any other way than described here; you are IMHO, wasting your time.

If you look to God for our moral sense you are also wasting your time because it is to mankind to set the rules of our dominion.

Regards
DL


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 Post subject: Re: Does God enjoy evil?
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2010, 04:54 
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One of the best insights into good and evil I've ever read is Nietzsches: Beyond Good and Evil it is at heart a railing against institutionalised morality, primarily the churches and those timid philosophers of the past who were ultimately subservient to it, but it goes into a great deal of depth on why the concepts are slavish, and the morality of Europe herd like and should be destroyed and a more enlightened morale system should arise from the ashes. In some senses he was 200 years a head of his time, his vision is, if not entirely the same, are much closer to what exists now, where the church has no power, society is not slaving under defunct morality from the past, and morality is decided by the common ethical standards of the people freed somewhat from the premise of what God would decide is good.

I suspect had he been alive today he would of been if not pleased then at least encouraged by moralities abandonment of silly concepts like good and evil as if they ever had any real meaning. He endeavoured to convey there is man and his natural wants and instincts and there is ethical consideration and it is up to what he called the free spirits to build a moral code, not to impose concerns or ideas that stem from an insular and slavish devotion to a system as had been the endeavour of many philosophers in the past. It is up to men to become something more by freeing themselves from convention, becoming said free spirits and approaching the future without the baggage of the past. In this sense Nietzsche was a strong believer in utilitarianism.

I do agree whilst good and evil would of been useful terms to semi itinerant often illiterate peoples, in the modern world morality is never that simple and seldom black and white, to some extent such categories are useless. Right and wrong are more robust terms, what is the right thing to do given a situation x, is it arbitrary, is it always right to do such a thing or given y are there moral reasons it would become wrong and so on..? Morality then becomes easier to define without the pointlessly arbitrary terminology it also remains more consistent and adaptable. Though shalt not do murder... Although it is possible to think of a cause whereby murder is not just the right thing to do but is to use a defunct term: good.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


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 Post subject: Re: Does God enjoy evil?
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2010, 14:35 
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Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
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Yes,. Our use of some terms like good, have gone sideways.

Regards
DL


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