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PostPosted: 02 Jan 2008, 23:00 
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Belief or Faith-Intelligence or Evolution?

Author: Cypress Hearth Witch [a WitchVox Sponsor]
Posted: December 30th. 2007
Times Viewed: 467

The debate over “Intelligent Design” and Evolution “Theory” continues, even though courts have made decisions, and science reigns supreme. Most Pagans, however, stand firmly on the Evolution side, because either their belief in Nature as power precludes any argument over evolution, or because we find the anthropomorphic idea of a creator, well, just silly.

Mostly, though, I think it’s because we’re disappointed that people don’t connect with Nature well enough anymore to believe in its own well appointed processes.

Look at the famous Scopes Monkey Trial. People were so willing to live with a status quo, not questioning their upbringing, or their (however non well thought out) beliefs, that the theory of evolution was declared unfit and “heretical” to teach in public schools. Granted, this was a long time ago, and you’d think we’ve come a long way, but just look at how we are treated, in general, by the public as declared Pagans or Witches.

So how does the debate between the Intelligent Design and Evolution Theory affect us as Pagans? I think most of you reading this are intelligent enough to figure that one out. But the violation of church and state is another essay.

We as Pagans who practice some form of nature based religion, who don’t follow Christian dogma, need our voices heard even in ways we don’t think of. This debate is one way.

We are on the brink of discovering that magick is an actuality, scientifically proving this through String Theory, or The Theory of Everything. I won’t get into those details now, but it can easily be researched on the internet or at your local library. (I urge you to do so if you haven’t already, it’s amazing) .

Sometimes I wonder how an otherwise intelligent person can get behind the idea that science isn’t adequate to explain our origin as a species. Life originates, life evolves, life adapts. That’s a fact. The Intelligent Design theorists will tell you about something they call “irreducible complexity.” This is the idea that complex systems can’t be approached gradually, that some ‘intelligent’ parts had to be there originally in order for the system as a whole to work.

Okay, it sounds reasonable on paper. But as a whole, I think that these sorts of ideas come out of what an old philosophy professor of mine called “The God Basket.” This is the place where everything that can’t be yet explained goes in order to explain it away.

“How did this come about?”

“God planned it that way.”

“Oh, I see.”

I realize that Intelligent Design theorists insist that it has nothing to do with religion. How can that be when their entire theory rests on the idea that God, or some intelligent omniscient, omnipotent being, created everything with some design for its purpose in mind?

In this argument I think that the word adaptation is key. Does nature adapt? Sure it does. Does life adapt? Sure it does. Does religion adapt?

Well, I think in most cases we can say no.

Our Pagan religions have adapted through the centuries out of sheer will to survive. Survival of the fittest. Darwin seemed to have mentioned that. Does that make us the strongest? Only in so far as we are open minded enough to see the world around us and make choices based on informed decisions as well as faith, instead of merely on faith alone.

No, we, as nature followers understand that science is key to our understanding of the world we live in, even our universe. As I mentioned earlier, The Theory of Everything is beginning to touch on what we as Pagans and Witches have known for centuries: that everything is interconnected and works on microlevels that thoughts can key into.

Is this intelligent design?

One could argue that it is, and one could argue that the universe evolved this way because it would simply collapse if it had not. Certain intelligent adaptations had to have been made throughout evolution. Actually, Darwin’s Natural Selection Theory explains “Intelligent Design” in this way. There are microevolutions taking place every day. In DNA, for example. And in the universe in such ways that we can’t see or know. And in magick.

We make adjustments in our magickal workings to adapt to the way the world is changing, to adapt to the way our lives are changing, etc. Nothing is static, no matter how hard Christian Fundamentalists want to believe it. But believing something doesn’t make it so. To have FAITH in something, doesn’t make it so, but neither does it ask to be made so.

So, there’s the rub. Perhaps the proponents of intelligent design have mixed up belief with faith.

It’s okay to have faith that an intelligent, omnipotent being created all “the heavens and the earth” with a grand design in mind. But when that gets crossed with belief, then something formal comes into play. Belief sometimes gets confused with know. And that’s when it’s time for the believers to insist that they are right, and that everyone else should understand and conform.

That’s when it’s time that church and state gets mixed into the forum and people take sides. Belief when confused with knowledge gets nasty, and people get hurt.

So far, I don’t think anyone has gotten physically hurt in the Intelligent Design vs. Evolution Theory debate (and if they have, I heartily apologize) , but students, most especially young children who are ripe for assimilating information, have been hurt by the idea that something so obviously religious, I’d go so far as to even say Judeo-Christian, should be taught to them in school as fact. If parents want their kids to learn that some guy in the sky created everything for their benefit, (okay, so I’m reducing a bit here) , that’s fine, do it in Sunday school.

But shouldn’t we, as Pagans, have the same rights?

If it’s okay to teach Intelligent Design as fact in school, then I propose that we teach the idea that magick is a natural process that can be accessed by focusing mental energy and properly bringing natural elements together to achieve the desired affect. This is closer to the truth, according to science.

But what it all comes down to is the controversy. The debate itself.

There’s nothing wrong with debate. But I say if people want Intelligent Design to be taught in public schools, instead we should teach the debate. Teach the controversy.

Because when we teach controversy in a structured way, questions can be answered.


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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2008, 10:58 
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:coffee: I say you (and science) mis-use the name / word of "nature" as simply a fancy name for God as in mother-nature and father-nature and saying things like the heavens and the earth are created naturally or a natural process is just giving God characteristics into the name of nature.

Using "nature" link HERE as the cause and explanation is being VERY disingenuous in our society.

My idea is that children must not be taught the religious "Creationism" in school because even the Creationist are divided and confused in their beliefs so there is nothing to factually teach. It is like demanding school prayer when they can not even agree on what the prayer would say because Christians disagree on their famous "Lord's Prayer" and many word that prayer differently from each other.

But I also say is we have made a self-destructive mistake in teaching evolution and anti-religious teachings in the schools too. What I would suggest is that we leave evolution and related subjects as a College course just like any other Theology is a College course, because then the adult children can think without the great brain washings done to younger kids.

If we look at public schools as the way of making better citizens and better workers and better leaders then neither religion nor evolution promotes any of that.

I would prefer that the public schools teach things like the Law and better communication skills. We have graduates that can not program a VCR but they know they evolved from monkeys (even though it was never monkeys) and a graduate from public school will get a driving ticket and be completely uneducated and incompetant in going to Court and making their own case. That is functionally illiterate when one does not understand the instructions and does not know how to communicate their own feelings or their own defense.

A child that learns evolution is not a child that has been made functionally smarter because that information is utterly useless to any person entering society. And that info would be easily learned if taught in an archeology College course.

Religions are trying a futile and senseless approach by wanting Creationism taught in the schools because the best argument is to take out evolution and replace it with some thing socially useful.

Teaching and promoting the evolution is a type of government support and establishment of a religion and religious doctrine that is directly in opposition to the society's free religions, and so I see the teaching and promoting evolution as being a gov sponsored religion that does NOT separate the Church from the State.

So can you see that not teaching religion must include NOT teaching the anti-religion in the name of science either?

Atheism is a type of religion in itself.

I see the present agenda as purposely trying to undermine the society's religions and so now we have a very immoral society blossoming.

:expose:

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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2008, 12:21 
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Booky wrote:
My idea is that children must not be taught the religious "Creationism" in school because even the Creationist are divided and confused in their beliefs so there is nothing to factually teach. It is like demanding school prayer when they can not even agree on what the prayer would say because Christians disagree on their famous "Lord's Prayer" and many word that prayer differently from each other.


Moreover, you could start to ask -whose- creation story to use to teach? Abrahmic? Hindu? Hopi? Yanomamo? Mayan? Once you open that door, it's a sort of "all or nothing" approach ...

Booky wrote:
But I also say is we have made a self-destructive mistake in teaching evolution and anti-religious teachings in the schools too. What I would suggest is that we leave evolution and related subjects as a College course just like any other Theology is a College course, because then the adult children can think without the great brain washings done to younger kids.


But ... evolution isn't a theology ... And, it's not brain-washing ... It's proven by the evidence of the world around us using ... scientific testing and evaluation ... That's non-baised, right?

Booky wrote:
If we look at public schools as the way of making better citizens and better workers and better leaders then neither religion nor evolution promotes any of that.

I would prefer that the public schools teach things like the Law and better communication skills. We have graduates that can not program a VCR but they know they evolved from monkeys (even though it was never monkeys) and a graduate from public school will get a driving ticket and be completely uneducated and incompetant in going to Court and making their own case. That is functionally illiterate when one does not understand the instructions and does not know how to communicate their own feelings or their own defense.


Well, I agree, there's a lot in our culture that people don't learn. And, when it comes to law, our law enforcement entities are (seems to me) woefully under-staffed and under-funded, to the point that people feel they can do what they want because the fear of getting caught is so small ...

Booky wrote:
A child that learns evolution is not a child that has been made functionally smarter because that information is utterly useless to any person entering society. And that info would be easily learned if taught in an archeology College course.


Umm ... Not the way -I- teach it, but then again, I teach at the college level. :dontknow: When I teach it, I tie in the evolutionary theory not only with the biological, but also with the cultural aspects. We watch our culture(s) change to better fit their environments: ecological, technological, political, religious, economic, etc. Same theory, conceptual organism ... :)

Booky wrote:
Religions are trying a futile and senseless approach by wanting Creationism taught in the schools because the best argument is to take out evolution and replace it with some thing socially useful.

Teaching and promoting the evolution is a type of government support and establishment of a religion and religious doctrine that is directly in opposition to the society's free religions, and so I see the teaching and promoting evolution as being a gov sponsored religion that does NOT separate the Church from the State.


But what's the 'religion of evolution'? Atheism? I would go so far as to say that the evolutionary theory espouses no god/dess, but I don't see it promoting anyone/ thing in the supernatural ...

Booky wrote:
So can you see that not teaching religion must include NOT teaching the anti-religion in the name of science either?

Atheism is a type of religion in itself.


Well ... I will say that I've encountered 'fundimental' atheists and atheists who automatically attack -any- theistic belief, but I don't see where removing one of the fundimental understandings of biology from school teachings would help in any way.

I mean, in that sense, why bother with school at all? Just have children go about life with their parents and learn from example if all you want is for them to learn how to exist in society.

I feel what we do in scientific teaching in schools (any of the sciences, like, but not limited to, biology, geology, physics, chemistry) makes our children understand the way the world works, not only so that they can use the principles to make their lives easier/ better, but also safer ... I annoys me that they have to put the warnings on bleach and ammonia containers not to mix the two. We learned that pretty significantly in WWI, didn't we? It -should- be common knowledge ... :dontknow:

Booky wrote:
I see the present agenda as purposely trying to undermine the society's religions and so now we have a very immoral society blossoming.

:expose:


The 'immoral society' is much more easily attributed to the counter-cultural movements of the 1960's and early 1970's (and those attributed to the 1950's 'McCarthy Inquisitions'), than to teaching evolution in schools ... :wave:

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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2008, 19:45 
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Hex wrote:

Moreover, you could start to ask -whose- creation story to use to teach? Abrahmic? Hindu? Hopi? Yanomamo? Mayan? Once you open that door, it's a sort of "all or nothing" approach ...

But ... evolution isn't a theology ... And, it's not brain-washing ... It's proven by the evidence of the world around us using ... scientific testing and evaluation ... That's non-baised, right?

Well, I agree, there's a lot in our culture that people don't learn. And, when it comes to law, our law enforcement entities are (seems to me) woefully under-staffed and under-funded, to the point that people feel they can do what they want because the fear of getting caught is so small ...

Umm ... Not the way -I- teach it, but then again, I teach at the college level. :dontknow: When I teach it, I tie in the evolutionary theory not only with the biological, but also with the cultural aspects. We watch our culture(s) change to better fit their environments: ecological, technological, political, religious, economic, etc. Same theory, conceptual organism ... :)

But what's the 'religion of evolution'? Atheism? I would go so far as to say that the evolutionary theory espouses no god/dess, but I don't see it promoting anyone/ thing in the supernatural ...

Well ... I will say that I've encountered 'fundimental' atheists and atheists who automatically attack -any- theistic belief, but I don't see where removing one of the fundimental understandings of biology from school teachings would help in any way.

I mean, in that sense, why bother with school at all? Just have children go about life with their parents and learn from example if all you want is for them to learn how to exist in society.

I feel what we do in scientific teaching in schools (any of the sciences, like, but not limited to, biology, geology, physics, chemistry) makes our children understand the way the world works, not only so that they can use the principles to make their lives easier/ better, but also safer ... I annoys me that they have to put the warnings on bleach and ammonia containers not to mix the two. We learned that pretty significantly in WWI, didn't we? It -should- be common knowledge ... :dontknow:

The 'immoral society' is much more easily attributed to the counter-cultural movements of the 1960's and early 1970's (and those attributed to the 1950's 'McCarthy Inquisitions'), than to teaching evolution in schools ... :wave:



:banghead: I had forgotten about this and here I am again starting the stupid and futile dispute all over again.

This is all a total side issue with my stuff on the side too.

It is all a matter of power, and since the secular humanist, link 1 and link 2, have the advantage now then the dispute has absolutely nothing to do with right or wrong, or who is right or wrong because it is only a matter of who has the power over the other.

So I am frustrated again and these posting have re-shown it to me that it is a matter of power (force the beliefs) and nothing else.

What I came up with before and I re-affirm now is that we need civil war because the arguments are never productive.

History dictates that such diverse disputes can only be affronted and corrected by force.

That is my belief.

Bye. :wave:

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PostPosted: 04 Sep 2008, 20:06 
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Yeep! :eek:

Then you're advocating the use of force in the name of, if you will, a jihad?

Okay then! :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking: :viking:



No, seriously ...

Booky wrote:
:banghead: I had forgotten about this and here I am again starting the stupid and futile dispute all over again.


All about which? I mean, don't automatically assume that I'm an atheist, since I teach evolution at the college level. I just don't see evolution as any sort of threat to my own personal beliefs and have no agenda in teaching ...

Booky wrote:
This is all a total side issue with my stuff on the side too.

It is all a matter of power, and since the secular humanist, link 1 and link 2, have the advantage now then the dispute has absolutely nothing to do with right or wrong, or who is right or wrong because it is only a matter of who has the power over the other.


Whoa ... According to the Pew Studies, Christians make up 78.4% of the US population. Atheists (and other sorts of religions which are lumped together) make up 7.2%. How do they 'have power'? :umm:

Booky wrote:
So I am frustrated again and these posting have re-shown it to me that it is a matter of power (force the beliefs) and nothing else.

What I came up with before and I re-affirm now is that we need civil war because the arguments are never productive.

History dictates that such diverse disputes can only be affronted and corrected by force.

That is my belief.

Bye. :wave:


:oops: I am really sorry if I've offended you, but ... you did make the statements ... :cheeky:

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