The Round Table (Rational Pagans Forum)

Science & The Supernatural: A Discussion of the World Around us - Based on Science with an Interest in the Supernatural ...
It is currently 26 Jun 2017, 05:31

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Please note: Discussion here should be relatively civil. Attack the post, not the poster. Thanks!



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2010, 11:10 
Offline
'Lustrous Potentate
User avatar

Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 11:06
Posts: 411
From what I can see, the 'poisoner' interpretation stems from the septuagint Greek translation. The original Hebrew word found in the masoretic text is מכשפה, mekhashefa. The root is unrelated to the roots for poison, herbs or medicine, but is related to the root for 'whisper'. Rashi and other Jewish commentators accept that it refers to sorcery or witchcraft. A variation of the word is used in 2 Kings 9:22 to refer to the many sorceries of Jezebel, and again in Psalm 58:6 to refer to the voice of charmers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2010, 11:20 
Offline
Adherent

Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
Posts: 94
The Dagda

We will likely never know.

Who cares. We have to look at it from what those foolish African believers look at it as. Their view is killing children not ours.

Do not argue the word when it is the spirit you fight.

Regards
DL


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2010, 11:25 
Offline
Adherent

Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
Posts: 94
Zebulon wrote:
A great deal of Jewish exegesis revolves around rationalizing the pronouncements of bronze age goatherders to make them amenable to contemporary mores. At least the Jewish tradition allows for this, unlike some of the more fundamentalist "scripture only" literalist sects.

Gods are bloodthirsty and venal because people are bloodthirsty and venal, and they create gods who reflect and reinforce their predilections.

An interesting question, "what god is worthy of worship"? Might be a good topic for a new thread.


Your answer here would be easy to guess.
Best to fight literalists and fundamentals elsewhere and convert some of the poor sick folk.

Count me in for back up.

Regards
DL


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2010, 11:28 
Offline
Adherent

Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
Posts: 94
[quote="jess"]Well, that's just it.

I can concede the God of the OT may exist. quote]

You don't say!!!

Then you have bought into staffs turning into snakes?

Regards
DL


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2010, 17:01 
Offline
The Power to Scry
User avatar

Joined: 05 Dec 2009, 05:45
Posts: 803
Location: My house
Zebulon wrote:
From what I can see, the 'poisoner' interpretation stems from the septuagint Greek translation. The original Hebrew word found in the masoretic text is מכשפה, mekhashefa. The root is unrelated to the roots for poison, herbs or medicine, but is related to the root for 'whisper'. Rashi and other Jewish commentators accept that it refers to sorcery or witchcraft. A variation of the word is used in 2 Kings 9:22 to refer to the many sorceries of Jezebel, and again in Psalm 58:6 to refer to the voice of charmers.


I'm not entirely convinced of either of the suggestions. But meh it really doesn't matter one way or another I just side with the one way because it seems to make more sense in context and that treatise is quite convincing. I don't believe in magic nor religious mysticism nor The Bible so it's merely academic to me and there is nothing invested in it.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2010, 17:05 
Offline
The Power to Scry
User avatar

Joined: 05 Dec 2009, 05:45
Posts: 803
Location: My house
Greatest I am wrote:
The Dagda

We will likely never know.

Who cares. We have to look at it from what those foolish African believers look at it as. Their view is killing children not ours.

Do not argue the word when it is the spirit you fight.

Regards
DL


It would make no sense even if The Bible has been translated correctly and it shows no sign of accuracy in the past any more than any other ancient/ classical tome.

Frankly though you can't convince fanatics of anything.

_________________
May the road rise up
To meet you
May the wind be always
At your back
May the sun shine warm
upon your face
May the rain fall soft
upon your field,
And until we meet again.
May God hold you in the palm of his hand.


"I apologise... For nothing!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2010, 09:48 
Offline
'Lustrous Potentate
User avatar

Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 11:06
Posts: 411
The Dagda wrote:
I don't believe in magic nor religious mysticism nor The Bible so it's merely academic to me and there is nothing invested in it.

Agreed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2010, 13:18 
Offline
Adherent

Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
Posts: 94
The Dagda wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Zebulon wrote:
jess wrote:
What type of god would encourage people to kill children?

Most of them, apparently.


Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Regards
DL


Actually that's a mistranslation, or a poor translation. Some suggest it was meant to decry poisoners.

Quote:
Witch... or Poisoner?
"His" Bible (the King James Bible) was translated to keep Jamie-boy happy, so they translated the word chasaph--which is Hebrew for poisoner-- to mean "witch" instead.

The real Biblical passage was about the disturbing crime of poisoning in the Jewish community. When that line was originally written, poisonings were a growing concern. And, in that "eye for an eye" era, the logical sentence for a poisoner was death.

BOOKE VI

Chapter I - The exposition of this Hebrue word Chasaph, wherein is answered the objection conteined in Exodus 22. to wit: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live, and of Simon Magus. Acts. 8.

(page 64) Chaspah, being a Hebrue word, is Latined Veneficium, and is in English, poisoning, or witchcraft; if you will so have it. The Hebrue sentence written in Exodus, 22. is by the 70. interpretors translated thus into Greeke, [note: I'll fill this in when I have a Greek font and more time], which in Latine is,

Veneficos (sive) veneficas non retinebitis in vita,

in English, You shall not suffer anie poisoners, or (as it is translated) witches to live. The which sentence Josephus an Hebrue borne, and a man of great estimation, learning and fame, interpreteth in this wise; Let none of the children of Israel have any poison that is deadlie, or preparted to anie hurtfull use. If anie be apprehended with such stuffe, let him be put to dfeath, and suffer that which he meant to doo to them, for whom he prepared it. The Rabbins exposition agree heerewithall. Lex Cornelia differeth not from this sense, to wit, that he must suffer to death, which either maketh, selleth, or hath anie poison, to the intent to kill anie man.

This word is found in these places following: Exodus. 22, Deut. 18, 10. 2 Sam. 9, 22. Dan. 2,2. 2 Chr. 33, 6. Eay. 47, 9, 12. Malach, 3,5. Jerem. 27, 9, Mich. 5, 2. Nah. 3,4. bis. Howbeit, in all our English translations, Chaspah is translated, witchraft.


[This was copied from the Dover reprint edition of Reginald Scot's DISCOVERIE OF WITCHCRAFT. For a more complete copy of this text, see this page.]


http://www.hollowhill.com/fun/halloween/witch-bible.htm

Another interpretation is that it decries religions that are not Christian which is of course no great surprise. The Church is nothing without its own authority. Personally the poisoner interpretation sounds more reliable to me, but then I am neither a Christian in search of a means to persecute women with influence such as wise women and or midwives or a pagan, so it doesn't matter to me.


If it does not then you are not much of a moral creature.
We owe it to each other to try to make sure we all think correctly.
Who knows, the right word from you might save your own grandchild some day from a witch believing idiot that thinks your grandchild a witch.

It doe not matter does it?

Regards
DL


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Mar 2010, 16:22 
Offline
Grand High Lord Admiral of Hell
User avatar

Joined: 10 Sep 2007, 13:14
Posts: 5726
Location: Buffalo, NY
Greatest I am wrote:
If it does not then you are not much of a moral creature.
We owe it to each other to try to make sure we all think correctly.
Who knows, the right word from you might save your own grandchild some day from a witch believing idiot that thinks your grandchild a witch.

It doe not matter does it?

Regards
DL



That's a nice perspective to put things in - not just for this topic, but for others too ... :cheers:

_________________
If you can't stand the heat, don't tickle the dragon ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2010, 10:02 
Offline
Adherent

Joined: 24 Mar 2010, 15:01
Posts: 94
Thanks.

Regards
DL


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group